Osmosis

To be honest, it's not just the language that's used that's worrying. Is it actually ok for someone to demand of another where they were born? To post up their 'credentials'? I don't think he's asking about my academic qualifications. It's bullying.

My point Colin, is that there appear to be double standards in force here, both amongst the posters and also in the moderation of the forum. Some of my comments have been rude, and I've been called out for them, and possibly rightly criticised, and marked down. But why is 'knuckle-dragging wingnut' not ok, and yet 'loony left tree-hugger', and plenty of other stuff, goes unremarked?

Thank you Ubique. Interesting to learn what you say. It lends some perspective to the other views he has expressed about migrants, Muslims and refugees, views which would not be tolerated at least officially in the police service. One thinks immediately of Stephen Lawrence.

Rudeness, it seems, is not only tolerated but applauded on this forum when posted by those on the right, but not by those on the left. But I'll wear your loathing with pride, to quote a man who is the antithesis of you Roger.

Fair enough. But cut and pasting a whole article without acknowledging where it came from may lead people to assume you wrote it yourself, even though the quality of the writing is totally different to anything you've ever posted before.

I've no problem with people pasting quotes and references from the papers and elsewhere, I've done it myself. That's different to pasting whole, unattributed articles. In my view, it doesn't further the debate to simply republish stuff people can read for themselves if you provide a link.

I get on fine with 'the locals', Roger with-no-surname; most of them are Tories but they're not the rabid xenophobes I've encountered on here, and I certainly don't judge them. This forum hosts a handful of regular posters, some of whom hold extreme right-wing views, which I don't think reflect those of the county generally, otherwise we'd have Nigel Ely as our MP, or worse. What 'credentials' do I need exactly in order to post on here? And who do you think you are to demand them? Have you got the right credentials Roger? Let me guess: white, male, Hereford born-and-bred, and certainly not with a surname like Khan.

I'm an immigrant Roger!

Well done Rebecca! You can cut and paste from the Spectator! Try reading a bit more widely.

I don't come on here because I think everyone agrees with me, quite the opposite. What I object to is being told I'm talking tripe, by people who never back up their own arguments with any facts, and don't know the difference between debt and deficit. But ignorance is no barrier to an opinion, as this forum repeatedly demonstrates. I'm sure you must be aware that there is a group on here who swarm over any left-of-centre comment with seriously vicious diatribes. I haven't been contributing on here for very long, but long enough to find out what the general consensus is. Please do let me know, if this is a forum for right wingers only, or if we are all free to express our views? This forum is held in contempt by many people in Hereford, for the narrow and ignorant views that are routinely expressed on here.

How much debt was left by the Labour government Rebecca, and what do you think they spent the money on?

We have common ground politically, just as you do with others on here. Are you all joined at the hip? You certainly act like a pack.

You are right Dippy. The faux outrage on here about women being molested was a transparent attempt to claim that refugee=rapist. Not one person on here expressed any outrage over the reported rape in Belmont last year.

Talk sense to a fool, and he will call you foolish.

The reason for lack of funding to local authorities, doctors and nurses, care for the elderly, etc. is not because we can't afford it. The cuts to services are ideologically driven, because fundamentally the Tories don't want the state to be providing people with services, they want you to go out and pay for it yourself. They can find the money to fund wars and bombing FFS; if they can do that then they need to fund the resultant refugee crisis..

Evening Cambo. You must do what you think best when it comes to the referendum - at least you have taken the trouble to find out a bit more about the issues. I agree with you about David Malone - he would make a great leader for the Greens.

Oh quite right Paul. Thought I was talking to Steve. Easy mistake.

Jeez, we can all find something out there to suit our respective arguments.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpJTZ5Z6Uhs If it's ok to call left-wingers lunatics, it's ok to call you a knuckle-dragging wingnut.

Bobby, I'm not going to argue with you about economics. But people have been moving about the globe for thousands of years. I'm not interested in somebody's place of origin or ethnicity really. "Country of origin" can be an arbitrary concept. I was born in Scotland and grew up there; I abandoned my homeland for economic reasons. We can't all stay exactly where we were born. Free movement of people is what makes the world dynamic and interesting, in my view.

Fine. I've made my views on TTIP and ISDS very clear. But this topic is about in or out of the EU - how will Brexit , if it happens, make any difference to the numbers trying to enter the UK illegally?

Well I feel like I’m flogging a dead horse here, but as a recreational polemicist I’m quite enjoying the debate. Your hyperbole (dictatorship? Serfdom?) needs to be challenged. As things stand in the UK we each have a single vote for just one out of 650 MPs. We have no vote on who becomes Prime Minister, no vote on the make-up of the cabinet, no vote on the members of the House of Lords, no vote on the members of the Civil Service, or the heads of government departments. The EU is arguably more representative: The people vote for members of the European Parliament, who represent them in more or less precisely the same way as in the House of Commons. On the European Council and Council of the European Union, the ministers and heads of government of the member states represent and take decisions on behalf of their people, just as they do domestically and when dealing with other international bodies. In the Commission, the governments of each member state – all representative of the people of those states – nominate a representative, who is then quizzed and ratified or rejected by the members of the European Parliament. What's not to like? While I’m at it I’m going to challenge a couple of other misapprehensions that get bandied about on here about Brexit. “Let’s leave the EU and join the EEA – Norway and Switzerland are doing fine without EU membership!†The UK is nothing like Norway or Switzerland. Both have far, far smaller populations than the UK, accounting for their far higher GDPs per capita. Both also have to pay in to the EU budget proportionate to their economies. Norway currently pays about 340 million euros per annum. The only difference is, they get nothing back out because they are not part of the EU. What is the advantage of being in the EEA but not the EU? EEA members are still bound by rules permitting freedom of movement. The citizens of all 30 EEA Member States have the right to move freely within the entire EEA, to live, work, establish companies, invest, and acquire real estate (often referred to as the “four freedomsâ€). Article 4 of the EEA Agreement also prohibits any discrimination on grounds of nationality (principle of non-discrimination). I'm putting that in bold, because I think it's passed a lot of people by. Switzerland, although not part of the EEA, has its own agreement with Brussels on free movement. Members of the EEA still must comply with the EU's many laws and regulations, because the EU is by far the largest player within the EEA. Both Norway and Switzerland – without having any say in their formulation – have to abide by 80-90% of EU rules and regulations in order to be part of the Common Market. Because what you need for a Common Market to function is common rules and regulations. The only real difference is that countries like Iceland, Norway and Switzerland get no say in the creation or modification of those rules and regulations. Struggling to see why this would be a desirable arrangement.

Your cut and paste jobs from the newspapers are always appreciated, but this headline is lazy scaremongering. There is nothing disturbing about refugees to reveal in the article; it's a cynical attempt to link them to TTIP and the horrors that that contains.

To be honest I'm not sure. But, bilateral trade agreements are being signed between nations all the time, and the really dangerous element of TTIP, which is the investor/state dispute resolution (ISDS) I mentioned above (allowing foreign companies to sue entire nations in special tribunals for the alleged expropriation of future profits through changes in laws or regulations) are routinely included in these. Eurotunnel recently sued the UK and French governments under ISDS and were required by a private arbitration tribunal to pay out nearly 24 million euros for failing to provide adequate security around the entrance to the Channel Tunnel between 1999 and 2002. These fines are obviously met by the tax payer. At the tribunal, we have no right of appeal (it's not a court by the way - these things are decided by corporate lawyers). So what I'm saying is, although TTIP is horrendous, these things are being signed off all the time between nations whether we're in the EU or not, with the blessing of the likes of David Cameron and his friends in global corporations. Kerrching! Worth persevering with the video - it is long, but he brings some humour into it.

Hello Cambo. Unfortunately, the deal is decided by the EU. But our government is fully behind it of course, because it favours corporations and will eviscerate our democracy (what's left of it). There is still a petition going which you can sign if you're against it https://stop-ttip.org/ but it's also worth finding out about. Those in favour claim it will create jobs and reduce trade barriers, but the reality is really shocking. It's worth watching this video which explains it very well. David Malone is a blogger I follow, and stood last year for the Green Party. I'm not a Green supporter myself, but Malone is a very good speaker and comes across very well.

Bobby I think your comments about a brain drain in Poland are pertinent, although I find your attitude towards migrant workers hard to take. If the UK decides to leave the EU, this will not affect Polish migration, they will still continue to work in Ireland and elsewhere. At the time Poland joined the EU in 2004, the country’s unemployment rate was 19%, and a youth unemployment rate of 40% made employment in the UK, even in low-skilled jobs, an attractive option for young Poles. A convoluted tax system in Poland makes starting a business and creating jobs extremely difficult. For the millions of Poles who emigrated over the last few years, there were no viable employment opportunities at home. But Poland's own economy is developing. It was the only EU country to avoid recession during the 2008-2009 financial crisis. Poland does not want to leave the EU despite this brain-drain - they are benefitting enormously from EU funding, which is as it should be given the disadvantages Poland endured economically after the war. Brexit will make no difference to Polish emigration or the Polish economy, other than to deprive it of funds which expat Poles send home. PS I employ a young Polish man, and know many others. He has been here for eight years. I have only ever found the Poles to be courteous and appreciative of everything they have here. They are not freeloaders. They are not the something-for-nothing types who spit on the cash dispensers and spend all day outside MacDonalds dropping rubbish and puking up outside nightclubs - how much civic pride and love for country do you think these natives exhibit? PPS Your words "Where's the economic sense inlosing their best and brightest to the West?" remind me of Paul Nuttall and Stewart Lee's riff on his comments - worth watching if you haven't already seen it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HMhWB95ldQ