Osmosis

21. While debating and heated discussions are fine, we will NOT tolerate insulting posts; personal attacks on other members or purposeless inflammatory posts.

 

​We do not tolerate personal abuse to other members, however, I do allow a good argument, that said, I refer to your comments above, Osmosis you have also been quite rude in some of your replies, particularly your knuckle-dragging wingnut comment (post 269) but that is okay and acceptable is it?

 

To be honest,  I am starting to think that this topic has run it's course and I am very tempted to close it in an attempt to defuse it all. I will let it continue for the time being but if comments carry on being personal and members cannot respect one another views I will close it.

To be honest, it's not just the language that's used that's worrying. Is it actually ok for someone to demand of another where they were born? To post up their 'credentials'? I don't think he's asking about my academic qualifications. It's bullying.

21. While debating and heated discussions are fine, we will NOT tolerate insulting posts; personal attacks on other members or purposeless inflammatory posts.

 

​We do not tolerate personal abuse to other members, however, I do allow a good argument, that said, I refer to your comments above, Osmosis you have also been quite rude in some of your replies, particularly your knuckle-dragging wingnut comment (post 269) but that is okay and acceptable is it?

 

To be honest,  I am starting to think that this topic has run it's course and I am very tempted to close it in an attempt to defuse it all. I will let it continue for the time being but if comments carry on being personal and members cannot respect one another views I will close it.

My point Colin, is that there appear to be double standards in force here, both amongst the posters and also in the moderation of the forum. Some of my comments have been rude, and I've been called out for them, and possibly rightly criticised, and marked down. But why is 'knuckle-dragging wingnut' not ok, and yet 'loony left tree-hugger', and plenty of other stuff, goes unremarked? 

Osmosis ...Had to be said ..........I agree with you - thank you .

 

Further to my last - I may be wrong but ROGER has given me the thought that he is either a PCSO or Police Officer or retired from one of the aforementioned. If I am correct it appear to me that if he uses the sort of language he uses to describe a fellow poster no wonder the public support of the Police etal is falling !

Thank you Ubique. Interesting to learn what you say. It lends some perspective to the other views he has expressed about migrants, Muslims and refugees, views which would not be tolerated at least officially in the police service. One thinks immediately of Stephen Lawrence.

You are evasive and a REMOVED In my opinion. 

Rudeness, it seems, is not only tolerated but applauded on this forum when posted by those on the right, but not by those on the left. But I'll wear your loathing with pride, to quote a man who is the antithesis of you Roger.

But sometimes you are better off pasting a larger part of a quote/reference in order to have the impact intended, it is not always appropriate to just post a link, some people will not click that link, but a few paragraphs they may read.

Fair enough. But cut and pasting a whole article without acknowledging where it came from may lead people to assume you wrote it yourself, even though the quality of the writing is totally different to anything you've ever posted before. 

 

Appears Osmosis doesn't like us pasting what interests us and maybe others. Strange because through the process of osmosis you can learn and understand things gradually without much effort.

 

Let's lighten up on this subject

 

or as Richard E. Byrd said:

 

 

I enjoyed pasting this!

 

I've no problem with people pasting quotes and references from the papers and elsewhere, I've done it myself. That's different to pasting whole, unattributed articles. In my view, it doesn't further the debate to simply republish stuff people can read for themselves if you provide a link.

Post your credentials as to how you can judge the locals who you obviously despise ..... I'm not a fan of these pseudonyms that pass judgement as though their opinion is more valid because they can work a computer/phone. 

I get on fine with 'the locals', Roger with-no-surname; most of them are Tories but they're not the rabid xenophobes I've encountered on here, and I certainly don't judge them. This forum hosts a handful of regular posters, some of whom hold extreme right-wing views, which I don't think reflect those of the county generally, otherwise we'd have Nigel Ely as our MP, or worse. What 'credentials' do I need exactly in order to post on here? And who do you think you are to demand them? Have you got the right credentials Roger? Let me guess: white, male, Hereford born-and-bred, and certainly not with a surname like Khan.

I'm glad you're an expert on Hereford. How long have you been here? And where were you born? 

I'm an immigrant Roger!

 

Gordon Brown switched tactics in 2000 and committed himself to a massive, audacious project: the Europeanisation of the British economy. He set out to shift our political centre of gravity, from being the ‘third way’ between the EU and the US and becoming an EU-style country with a massive government and masses of people dependant on that government. This was the Brown project. So the years 2000-10 saw the size of the state soar from 37pc to 50pc – a rise of 13 points. This is a faster rise than any other country, over any other postwar decade. And half of the damage was done by 2007, before the crash.

 

At the start of that decade, Britain’s spending was closer to that of the USA, but Brown then started his massive increase. He started to force-feed the state like a foie gras goose, but couldn’t squeeze enough tax from the country. So his splurge was financed by debt. Brown stood out from every other global finance minister in borrowing like crazy, during the boom. So UK finances were in a precarious state when the crash struck.

 

By the time Lehman Bros collapsed, Brown had already increased Britain’s national debt by 43 per cent to fund his expansion of the state. He was already running up massive deficits: there was no deficit in 2000/01 but Brown (and his lieutenants Balls and Miliband) were running up a bizarre boom-time deficit of 3pc of GDP by 2005/6, the maximum allowed under EU rules. Brown’s ruinous profligacy defied every rule in the book of financial management. Even Keynesians argue that you need to run a surplus (i.e., reduce debt) in the good times. Brown had a different motto: more debt in the boom, more debt in the bust. And if it goes wrong: well, that’s my successors’ problem.

 

Hence the letter left by Ed Balls simply saying 'Dear Chief Secretary, I'm afraid there is no money. Kind regards – and good luck! Liam.'

 

handover_note.jpg

 

Well done Rebecca! You can cut and paste from the Spectator! Try reading a bit more widely.

A group of people who do not necessarily always agree with your views and branded as a pack now? How strange people react when others disagree with them.

I don't come on here because I think everyone agrees with me, quite the opposite. What I object to is being told I'm talking tripe, by people who never back up their own arguments with any facts, and don't know the difference between debt and deficit. But ignorance is no barrier to an opinion, as this forum repeatedly demonstrates. I'm sure you must be aware that there is a group on here who swarm over any left-of-centre comment with seriously vicious diatribes. I haven't been contributing on here for very long, but long enough to find out what the general consensus is. Please do let me know, if this is a forum for right wingers only, or if we are all free to express our views? This forum is held in contempt by many people in Hereford, for the narrow and ignorant views that are routinely expressed on here.

Help a lot of these people we can but there has to be some kind of limit in place. Where they managed to find £1.2 billion is beyond me especially with the huge debt left by the previous Labour Gov, I think we need to at some point start looking at our own housekeeping.

How much debt was left by the Labour government Rebecca, and what do you think they spent the money on?

You two must be joined at the hip! 

We have common ground politically, just as you do with others on here. Are you all joined at the hip? You certainly act like a pack.

Succinctly put, Osmosis. This is exactly what the Tories want.

 

Interesting to note that nobody has picked up on The Guardian news story, that a German teen age girl has now admitted that she lied about being kidnapped and raped by migrants.

 

I guess this wouldn't fit the agenda of the majority view on this thread.....

You are right Dippy. The faux outrage on here about women being molested was a transparent attempt to claim that refugee=rapist. Not one person on here expressed any outrage over the reported rape in Belmont last year.

What utter tripe! I disagree, we do not have the money, hence the debt. I do not buy into your anti Tory blurb either.

Talk sense to a fool, and he will call you foolish.

I see on the news tonight that the Syria conference has raised a massive £8bn and the UK has pledge a further £1.2bn, where is this UK money coming from? We have reduced our police force, we pay our doctors and nurses poorly, we don't really look after our elderly folk and there are cut backs to the emergency services and to our armed forces, yet we manage to find a FURTHER £1.2bn? 

The reason for lack of funding to local authorities, doctors and nurses, care for the elderly, etc. is not because we can't afford it. The cuts to services are ideologically driven, because fundamentally the Tories don't want the state to be providing people with services, they want you to go out and pay for it yourself. They can find the money to fund wars  and bombing FFS; if they can do that then they need to fund the resultant refugee crisis..

Evening osmosis that David Malone is very good I think the people of Scarborough & Whitby missed a trick by not electing him as their MP.

 

If before watching mr Malone talk on TTIP I was undecided on which way to vote? My mind would no longer be undecided because after listening to mr Malone I'd be convinced that the only way out of it would be to vote to leave the EU before that agreement gets signed because we would be left with even less sovereignty,than we currently have in the EU,as it is but once it's signed…I reckon you can kiss that all goodbye maybe not in the sort term but certainly over a short space of time?!

 

Arbitration to me equals kangaroo court there is no other word for it 3 lawyers deciding the outcome of disputes between big corporation & government more than likely the lawyers would be corrupt & in the pay of the big corporations? As it seems from what mr Malone says the corps win 99% of the time So it would not surprise me if they was taking bribes??

 

Once it was the common market & that was ok because it was about trade but now it's morphed into Frankenstein's monster which is bad & it's going to get worse in my opinion!…so if you believe in the one world order? then by all means vote to stay in....but if you believe in some sort of freedom & democracy then you must without hesitation vote to leave the EU

 

I don't bye into the augment that we can't survive besides we are one of Germany's biggest traders?!

Evening Cambo. You must do what you think best when it comes to the referendum - at least you have taken the trouble to find out a bit more about the issues. I agree with you about David Malone - he would make a great leader for the Greens.

I don't recall calling anyone a lunatic? 

Oh quite right Paul. Thought I was talking to Steve. Easy mistake.

I will wait for one of our resident lefties to defend this lot in Germany AGAIN.

 

A-group-of-migrant-men-attacking-two-pensioners-on-the-Munich-subway.jpg

 

This upsetting footage appears to show a group of young migrants attacking two elderly German men who stepped in because they harassed a girl on the subway

 

Pensioners attacked this time. The full story and video can be found here and in the Telegraph here

Jeez, we can all find something out there to suit our respective arguments.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpJTZ5Z6Uhs

If it's ok to call left-wingers lunatics, it's ok to call you a knuckle-dragging wingnut.

Osmosis, please don't think for a single moment that I have a poor opinion of the Polish migrants. I simply used them as an example. That said, if it helps you trying to figure out me, let me say this, I have an equally unwelcoming attitude to every single citizen of the EU that abandons their homeland for Western money. My view is its a betrayal of their nation and I know that I would never leave England for money. In short, this is my Country and I now no longer wish to share it with others who take and take and pretend to me and themselves that they're entitled to it all because they've slipped the exchequer a few quid in tax and national insurance payments.

As for the economic argument, and my proposition that the entire model the EU is following is a bag of rats, they are the thoughts and teachings of John Maynard Keynes and not something I've pulled out of the air. In short, he says, and I bloody believe him even though he's dead, if you become dependant upon a vast cheap labour force that'll work faster, harder and cheaper than anyone else they will make a wealthy few richer and the vast majority poorer because of the high subsidy levels required to fund the fun.

But worse, he says, and I believe him, when a disproportionate sum of money earned in one economy and recycled elsewhere, namely not earned and spent here, it's an economic recipe for disaster.

I repeat, all these impoverished Countries, particularly those from Central and East Asia are tied and bound to an economic model that halts their home country development because their kids chose to leave and seek a better life in the West. Whichever way you dress this, the EU is the biggest man made mistake since Germany decided they needed more living space.

Bobby, I'm not going to argue with you about economics. But people have been moving about the globe for thousands of years. I'm not interested in somebody's place of origin or ethnicity really. "Country of origin" can be an arbitrary concept. I was born in Scotland and grew up there; I abandoned my homeland for economic reasons. We can't all stay exactly where we were born. Free movement of people is what makes the world dynamic and interesting, in my view. 

"It has just been revealed that the UK was forced to pay €8 million to Eurotunnel for costs incurred preventing migrants entering the UK between 1999 and 2002"

 

Seems to me pretty clear that the burden of preventing illegal entry of migrants appeared to be a good reason for Eurotunnel to sue the UK within the rules of a secret tribunal where they know the rules and we don't.

 

Also the figures quoted are for just 3 years  - 15 years ago. So unless things at the tunnel have been tightened up that figure can only be at least 5 times as big at around €40,000,000 to date with more and more illegals waiting to take their chance.

 

Cut and pasting articles which catch my attention and may be of interest to others widens the debate, especially if you read the comments under these articles by other members of the public - a good cross section of opinions. As the referendum will decide whether we are in or are we out, I am sure a lot of people will not be reading the small print.

Fine. I've made my views on TTIP and ISDS very clear. But this topic is about in or out of the EU - how will Brexit , if it happens, make any difference to the numbers trying to enter the UK illegally?

That's one thing we certainly agree on.

 

You and I are much closer to accord than you realise. We differ primarily in the way each might seek to tackle the issues. I believe that it is easier to achieve change if we, as a country, actually have a say in our future as opposed to a 1/28th vote in a committee in which we are likely to be ignored and whose decisions can and will be overridden by the Commission, if that is what suits them.

 

When the people are persuaded to arise from their fat apathetic arses – usually because someone is hurting their pockets (poll tax riots) – they can and do achieve great things. Governments that can be voted out, even with pathetically low turn-outs, still pay attention as opposed to unelected appointees who are ultimately answerable to no-one.

 

A century ago the likes of radium and asbestos were viewed as being of great benefit to mankind. The truth of the science which showed the dangers was concealed, but ultimately the people arose to put an end to the abuses. Half a century ago the same happened with DDT. Commercial pressures will eventually be overcome in the case of more recent substances. Man just has a nasty habit of needing to reinvent the wheel with each new generation.

 

We could debate details until the genetically modified dairy production units return to their approved and regulated accommodation but the fundamental questions remain: Do you believe that democracy has had its day? Would you prefer to live under a dictatorship? Do you want your children to have to pay for their own healthcare? Do you want corporations to be more powerful than democratically elected governments? Do you want a say in your and your children's future or would you prefer serfdom?

 

To remain in the EU is to agree to serfdom, whether we like it or not.

 

I have said before that all major empires eventually collapse under the weight of their own administration, regulation and taxation. I believe it is better to get out of the EU now and be ready to help pick up the pieces, rather than stay in and be buried under the rubble.

 

The Independent - 3rd February 2016

 

Maybe employees will be able to sue their employers for loss of earnings when made redundant? I doubt it.

 

Your cut and paste jobs from the newspapers are always appreciated, but this headline is lazy scaremongering. There is nothing disturbing about refugees to reveal in the article; it's a cynical attempt to link them to TTIP and the horrors that that contains.

Thanks osmosis I will have a listen to mr Malone although it might take a couple of sittings!

 

In the mean time I have another question or two what will happen with this deal should the vote to leave succeed? Will we be bound by this deal if the EU go ahead & sign up to it?

To be honest I'm not sure. But, bilateral trade agreements are being signed between nations all the time, and the really dangerous element of TTIP, which is the investor/state dispute resolution (ISDS) I mentioned above (allowing foreign companies to sue entire nations in special tribunals for the alleged expropriation of future profits through changes in laws or regulations) are routinely included in these. Eurotunnel recently sued the UK and French governments under ISDS and were required by a private arbitration tribunal to pay out nearly 24 million euros for failing to provide adequate security around the entrance to the Channel Tunnel between 1999 and 2002. These fines are obviously met by the tax payer. At the tribunal, we have no right of appeal (it's not a court by the way - these things are decided by corporate lawyers). So what I'm saying is, although TTIP is horrendous, these things are being signed off all the time between nations whether we're in the EU or not, with the blessing of the likes of David Cameron and his friends in global corporations. Kerrching! Worth persevering with the video - it is long, but he brings some humour into it.

Evening osmosis you are right when it comes to TTIP none of us really know much about it but I have a sneaky suspicion that you do?…all I know is it's bad!

 

So here's my question this TTIP deal is it decided by the EU or do individual member states have the option on whether or not to sign up to it?

Hello Cambo. Unfortunately, the deal is decided by the EU. But our government is fully behind it of course, because it favours corporations and will eviscerate our democracy (what's left of it). There is still a petition going which you can sign if you're against it https://stop-ttip.org/ but it's also worth finding out about. Those in favour claim it will create jobs and reduce trade barriers, but the reality is really shocking. It's worth watching this video 

Well I don't bloody care about the economics of it all. I simply don't want to host millions of people who are here for the money and the free public services and don't care or love my Country.

But, if it is simple and straightforward economics that'll make you place your cross in the box that says, 'Out', then consider this and particularly the Nations of the former Soviet Bloc and the impact the EU economics have upon them.

Take poor Poland for example. Stripped of millions of their young people who've abandoned their homeland and invested themselves and their talents in the economy of our Country, they've got the huge advantage of not having to pay and care for their former citizens but their society, both socially and economically have become stagnant. Indeed, so heavily dependant upon pound sterling sent home to be recycled in their economy to prop up their fragile and ailing progress to attain some sort of near parity with the West, they've become hostages to the fortunes of the EU.

They are no longer able to develop themselves and modernise because their future, their bloody youngsters, have tipped up here to aid our economic aspirations. How can Poland possibly extricate themselves from this madness, create a better Poland when they've no manufacturing output or economic activity that doesn't involve Britsh Pound Sterlng or Euros earned and generated beyond their borders.

Since 2004 near on twenty one million have left the East region of Central and East Europe,flown the nest, abandoned their nations to work faster, cheaper and harder than everyone else. You tell me. Where's the economic sense inlosing their best and brightest to the West? How on earth does it benefit these Nations if all their youngsters leave and invest themselves in a foreign Country?

Bobby I think your comments about a brain drain in Poland are pertinent, although I find your attitude towards migrant workers hard to take. If the UK decides to leave the EU, this will not affect Polish migration, they will still continue to work in Ireland and elsewhere. At the time Poland joined the EU in 2004, the country’s unemployment rate was 19%, and a youth unemployment rate of 40% made employment in the UK, even in low-skilled jobs, an attractive option for young Poles. A convoluted tax system in Poland makes starting a business and creating jobs extremely difficult. For the millions of Poles who emigrated over the last few years, there were no viable employment opportunities at home. But Poland's own economy is developing. It was the only EU country to avoid recession during the 2008-2009 financial crisis. Poland does not want to leave the EU despite this brain-drain - they are benefitting enormously from EU funding, which is as it should be given the disadvantages Poland endured economically after the war. Brexit will make no difference to Polish emigration or the Polish economy, other than to deprive it of funds which expat Poles send home. 

PS I employ a young Polish man, and know many others. He has been here for eight years. I have only ever found the Poles to be courteous and appreciative of everything they have here. They are not freeloaders. They are not the something-for-nothing types who spit on the cash dispensers and spend all day outside MacDonalds dropping rubbish and puking up outside nightclubs - how much civic pride and love for country do you think these natives exhibit?

PPS Your words "Where's the economic sense inlosing their best and brightest to the West?" remind me of Paul Nuttall and Stewart Lee's riff on his comments - worth watching if you haven't already seen it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HMhWB95ldQ